Scots Independent
September 1995

Owned, Edited and Printed in Scotland - First Published in November 1926

Cartoon - by Macdonald

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Interview with Alex Salmond MP - Leader of the Scottish National Party

Interviewed by Kenneth Fee - Editor of Scots Independent

FEE: Can I invite you first of all to give our readers a general assessment of where we are at now as we progress to independence.

SALMOND: This year's elections have firmly established the SNP as the second party in Scottish politics, and one that is fighting extremely hard for first place! For the past four years the Party has been above 20 per cent in every election and in the opinion polls, which means that we are sustaining high levels of support better than ever before, higher and more sustained even than the mid 1970's. We are no longer in the cycle of boom-and-bust nationalism and Roseanna Cunningham's victory at Perth and Kinross, and our performance at the Unitary election, prove that we are increasingly viewed as a winning party. That is extremely important because the people back candidates and parties they think can win.

FEE: Which is more likely - one bound or evolution by devolution?

SALMOND: There are a number of possible routes to independence but we know that the next General Election will happen within eighteen months or so, and that is what the Party is gearing up for. We fight General Elections to win. But whatever the route I prefer to think of Independence as a process and Allan Macartney's 'Transition to Independence' Group is putting the detail on that process at the present time. To talk of 'one bound' or 'evolution' is to miss the point that we are already within the process of Independence - we are on our way, because more people than ever before believe in independence and want it to happpen.

FEE: Is the Party structure still adequate for the task?

SALMOND: The best feature of the SNP is undoubtedly our committed core of activists - the people who actually deliver the SNP vote. The worst feature is that there aren't nearly enough of them! The structure of the Party is obviously important but of equal or greater importance is the number of members and activists who can do the work and build up the vote in their area. We do need a strong co-ordinated HQ operation and that has been built up over the many years, and has been further enhanced this year by a major re-organisation which included the appointment of a Chief Executive, the strengthening of Press and Research and the impending strengthening of Organisation and Administration. My 'Convener's Club' initiative has raised almost f25,000 in the last ten months and is well on course to provide the funding necessary for the re-organisation. I have already appealed for more members for the Club through the SI and I am happy to do so again. We need the resources at HQ and this is the best way to help to provide them.

FEE: Would you favour, for example, direct (that is, one member, one vote) election of leadership positions?

SALMOND: The SNP is by far the most democratic Party in Scottish politics. My view is that our system of delegate democracy serves the Party extremely well.

FEE: Is there any case for a federal structure, assuming that you think that the SNP is a microcosm of the Scottish electorate ... "a rainbow coalition" as you have called it?

SALMOND: Because of the leading role given to the branches and constituencies, the SNP is arguably already a quasi-federal party! The SNP certainly represents the diversity of Scottish society to a far greater extent than any other party, but we have areas of weakness as well as strength. For example we do not have nearly enough Asian members although I am hopeful that this situation will be rectified soon.

FEE: How democratic does the internal electoral machine have to be?

SALMOND: Democratic enough to attract as many members and activists as we need to win Independence.

FEE: How does the SNP manage to flesh out for electors an attractive model for an independent Scotland without frightening away those who would prefer the continuing protection of a politically sympathetic English government?!

SALMOND: The main task facing the SNP is the need to build confidence amongst Scots about our economic prospects with Independence and our ability to govern ourselves sensibly. The idea that we need the London connection in order to save us from ourselves - from whatever part of the political spectrum it comes - is a particularly destructive version of the 'Scottish cringe'. We are currently presenting the economics of Independence in three stages.Firstly we must point out that Scotland pays her way within the Union; secondly we must assess and publicise the beneficial impact of independence itself; and thirdly we must show how the SNP's own plans can change Scotland for the better.

FEE: For example, if Tony Blair came to power in England and stayed in power for the next 10 to 15 years, and if Scottish Tories continue to come over to us, will Labour voters not just stay with Labour, rather than move to the SNP?

SALMOND: The experience of a Blair Government - should it ever happen - would be an extremely disappointing one for Scots, because Tony Blair's prioritv is Middle England, not Mainstream Scotland. New Labour in power would alienate Scots even further from London Government and Scots Labour voters from Blair. Scot's Labour voters are being betrayed every day by their leaders, and that is a process that would speed up under any future Labour Government, should one be elected. We have to continue our strong campaign against Labour, pointing up those betrayals - on pensions, on benefits and increasingly on the constitution - and drawing Labour supporters, and Tory supporters and many others into the SNP coalition for independence.

FEE: How will we Scots live together after Independence, given the current vituperation by us of our opponents, and of course vice versa?

SALMOND: Despite our submerged status I have always regarded Scotland as a remarkably cohesive nation. One of the duties of the SNP as a national party is to strengthen that cohesiveness. For example I have made a number of speeches in the past year attacking religious sectarianism in Scottish society - and incidentally I have been (remarkably) the only Scottish politician to do so! In those speeches I have tackled the issue of working together for the future - indeed one of the speeches was called 'The Making of the Foundations'. I have outlined the ways in which we need to add new badges of identity to sit alongside the old. and to use new symbols and new hopes to unite the nation.

This year in my Conference speech I intend to take this theme further, and to talk about racism in Scotland and the way in which we should be tackling it, and building a multi-cultural state which outlaws discrimination and encourages participation. After independence I am sure we will have a flourishiny democracy, with real political debate. One of the tragedies of the present situation is that democracy is absent from our country and political debate is often sterile and stereotyped. A new democracy in Scotland will greatly assist its unity as an independent country.

FEE: Well, assuming you're right and that's the unity of Scotland taken care of, how about the unity of the SNP?

SALMOND: They used to say that loyalty was the secret weapon of the Tories. No one can say that now. And this summer Blair has been on the receiving end of a richly deserved backlash over his sell-out of principle in pursuit of power. In contrast the SNP. over the last few years has - by and large - presentcd a united front and that has been a key ingredient of our success. Don't underrate the role of the ordinary party members in making the leadership behave itself.

For example, it was the common sense of National Council delegates earlier this year that put paid to a mischief-making trap by Scotland on Sunday, which unfortunately had produced an over-excited reaction from one or two of our gullible and voluble 'leading members'.

Similarly it was the goodwill of the Party which enabled Roseanna to withstand the effects of a malicious leaking from the Election Committee and emerge triumphant at the end of the Perth & Kinross by-election.

There is nothing more frustrating in politics than the waste of time and effort that is produced by internal party posturing Even recently I was struck by the contrast between one of our Executive meetings when far too much time was wasted by an exhibition of pre-Conference jitters from a small minority of large egos and a Scottish cabinet meeting only a day later which was a completely constructive and forward looking discussion about our new economic programme, prepared by John Swinney and Fergus Ewing.

The Party is entitled to expect more of the latter and less of the former from its collective leadership and this is the key judgment that delegates to this year's Conference should make as they choose the team best-fitted for office in this crucial General Election run-up.

FEE: Let's move on to that. How do we win over the Central Belt, Alex? We can win seats in the North by putting together a non-Labour alternative to the incumbent Tories. Does it not follow that a successful strategy for Central Belt seats should be via a non-Tory alternative to incumbent Labour?

SALMOND: The SNP has a distinctive message which can and does appeal to all of Scotland. The fact that our vote is the most evenly spread throughout Scotland is testimony to our national appeal. People who are returning SNP Councillors, MPs and MEPs at the moment - no matter where they are in Scotland are exactly the same kind of people as those in other non-SNP areas. We will win them in the same way as we do where we are successful - by enthusing them about Scotland`s future as an independent country and by building up our electoral credibility. And when we talk about 'The North' remember that Perth and Kinross has parts of the Constituency that are barely a dozen miles from the Forth! The SNP as a party is quite right to be both a left-of-centre party (because Scotland is left-of-centre) and also a radical National party, seeking a consensus and the building of an independence coalition. Both aspects of our Party are of great value because they allow us to speak to and represent ordinary people who have very important personal, social and national aspirations.

FEE: But does not this mean that we pursue the daft strategy of implying that what is wrong with Central Belt Labour is that they are not 'Socialist' enough?

SALMOND: I don't accept the premise of that question, Kenneth. What we are saying about Labour is that they are betraying Scotland and their Scottish supporters. We are saying that Labour cannot be trusted, because they have walked away from vital commitments - commitments to pensions, to benefits, to the removal of nuclear weapons, and to constitutional commitments.

They have failed to protect Scotland and failed to take the actions that could have protected Scotland. We believe they will always let Scotland down, and therefore we are sure that they cannot be trusted. We think that many Labour voters know that too.

FEE: Have you any solution yet to the SNP's relationship with the still Labour-thirled trade unions?

SALMOND: Tony Blair seems to regard trade unionists as if they were lepers, and so the problem is not quite as great as it was. Labour is less thirled to the trade unions than at any time for a century and seems destined to become a kind of US-style Democrat Party.

But remember that even before this desertion of principle by Blair a quarter of Scottish trade union members were voting SNP - they did so at the last Election. By having a much sharper and specific policy profile on, for example, the minimum wage and benefits for 16 and 17 year olds we will be able to take Labour head-on at the next Election on the issues of vital importance to trade unionists.

Very often it is the leaders of the trade unions who are most thirled to Labour. the pro-independence stance of many of their members is, we know, getting through to them and they cannot resist that pressure for ever.

FEE: Many were hugely impressed by Roseanna's exchanges during the by-election about her support for an elected head of state ("I may support it, but the Party doesn't"). Could we use that technique to counter other long-standing smears (eg, in areas like housing, religion, and ownership, etc?)

SALMOND: The voters of Perth and Kinross were equally impressed by Roseanna's honesty, and also welcomed the tangible evidence that she was able to think for herself - unlike some of the other candidates! All democratic political parties must have room for individual views, but it is obviously vital that we have an agreed body of policy as the core of the SNP's message.

FEE: When we asked the late Donald Stewart the question "How long to Independence?" he would enigmatically hold up the fingers of one hand. What is your response now?

SALMOND: There is no time-scale written in the stars - which means that the time it takes is essentially for the Scottish people to determine. But the better resourced the SNP is and the more vigorously we deploy our arguments and our campaigning, the stronger Scotland's self-confidence will become and therefore the sooner Independence will be achieved. As I have already said, Independence is a process, but it will be the performance of the SNP which determines whether we are in the slow lane or on the fast track!

FEE: Lastly, we're not going to ask the standard Media question about whether you'll serve in a Scottish Assembly. Instead, are you going to stay in politics, post Independence, or will you go into business, head up the Civil Service or even cultivate your garden?

SALMOND: Having worked in both the private sector and the Civil Service before falling among thieves at Westminster, I have experience of a life outside politics! But of course I would dearly love to be part of a Scottish Administration in an Independent Parliament, although I hope that will not preclude fulfilling my other ambition, which is to be a golf professional!

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